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TOPIC: Call Clarification (from the membership letter)
#335
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 14  
Fair enough, seems I am outnumbered.

I think it's just from my monk's point of view that when you hear an effect that you normally can use Kai against, such as blindness your brain automatically goes into calculation mode for what rank it's effecting (i.e. if you have to bother at all), what call to use and, in my case working out if it's a rank 6-8 effect and whether it's efficient and/or worth it to stop it or not. All of which has to be done in a split second. A call such as paralysis is easy to process because I know there's no rank attached ever so I can't stop it. (yet )

The ranked ones are much more common (I don't ever recall having had an unranked blindness done on me before but it's possible it has) so that's what I'm used to but I guess I'll just have to reprogramme my brain slightly. Maybe other monk players don't have this issue. But I'll stick with my belief that it's more concise to have an associated call. In real life if someone is "blind" you don't know to what exent. Legally blind? Colour blind? Totally blind? Just "blind" doesn't tell you.

Your response may be that 'unranked' will only be used when the effect in question is usually ranked. But if that's so, you're relying on the player's knowledge of what effects are usually ranked... and therefore the shout appears to be defunct after all... (I hope you see the point.)
Your argument is invalid. Players can't, AFIK, do unranked effects, only monsters can. And said monster should be briefed on what to call by the monster ref.

One last thing: It may not be as perfectly obvious as some people are making out. I'm sure I heard Gravesong ask OOC what rank the "blindness" was in one of the fights...

L8R,
Adam.
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#337
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 7  
Hi,

On monks generally, I think it's good that it's difficult to use 'Shy' and 'Yah'. The risk is always that you'll try to resist something you can't, and have to pay the penalty. (I assume, having been away for 5 years, that if one tries to resist a 6-8 invocation/spell without a relevant HQ ability, this still results in unconsciousness for 15 minutes. If it doesn't then you're much better off as a monk nowadays!)

But the ability itself is really quite nice; and actually rather powerful.

adamtennant wrote:


Your response may be that 'unranked' will only be used when the effect in question is usually ranked. But if that's so, you're relying on the player's knowledge of what effects are usually ranked... and therefore the shout appears to be defunct after all... (I hope you see the point.)
Your argument is invalid. Players can't, AFIK, do unranked effects, only monsters can. And said monster should be briefed on what to call by the monster ref.


Your objection appears to be that my argument is unsound, not invalid. (It is enthymematic, of course. But that's normal in everyday language.)

To summarize: imagine monsters are instructed only to shout 'unranked' when using spells/invocations that usually have a 'rank' call attached to them. This doesn't help players _unless_ they already know to expect a 'rank' attached when those partiular spells/invocations are used. And if they do already know to expect a 'rank' call then they'll be listening out for it, and in all likelihood notice its absence.

Incidentally, players can do unranked effects; hence the recent debate about fear, for instance. Historically speaking, there were also some characters that could perform unranked versions of spells/invocations that were usually associated with rank calls. For example, there was an evil sphere invocation called 'Blindness' which was unranked, as well as the current black magic spell of the same name. I never remember this causing any serious problems.

Best,

Darrell
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#343
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 8  
Only 1 player has complained but I do think people in general do ask "what rank?" when hit with Sleep, Blindness etc as generally they expect a Rank

Maybe this is an education thing - tell everyone, in usual brief about effects etc at beginning of event - "if a monster shouts an effect that is usually ranked but without a rank assume it is unranked" however I stand by my assertion earlier that it is simpler to shout "unlimited ranks" after such an effect, it is no more clunky than shouting the spell effect i.e. Sleep 64 ranks and Sleep unlimited ranks are nearly the same

If we are talking about removing the OOC shouts however my other remedy would be to make all effects unlimited ranks which would mean adjusting spell levels but certainly moves the system in the right direction i.e. further equality between high and low level characters so that there can be a mix on an event without there being too many problems which was my fix for the other OOC shout - i.e. if everyone is affected by everything you don't need any "bounce", "dodge", "no effect" shouts at all....
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#345
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 26  
With regard to a couple of posts near the end of this thread:

- I think it would be perfectly reasonable + easy for the player ref to mention that spells without rank calls (as discussed) are assumed to affect everyone at the start of the event, if people truly are confused about it.

- I cast blindness unlimited ranks as a player, so it does exist! Generally causes upset when Micheleners/goody-goodies are around too

- The black magic version of blindness is ranked.
www.heroquest-larp.co.uk/rules/skills-sp...w=spells&guild=1
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#349
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 7  
petesutton wrote:
Only 1 player has complained but I do think people in general do ask "what rank?" when hit with Sleep, Blindness etc as generally they expect a Rank

Maybe this is an education thing - tell everyone, in usual brief about effects etc at beginning of event - "if a monster shouts an effect that is usually ranked but without a rank assume it is unranked" however I stand by my assertion earlier that it is simpler to shout "unlimited ranks" after such an effect, it is no more clunky than shouting the spell effect i.e. Sleep 64 ranks and Sleep unlimited ranks are nearly the same


Like a dog with a bone, I'll continue this one!

First, my comments about clunkiness were confined to the suggestion that 'unlimited ranks' should be used _in general_, i.e. in contexts in which no rank is normally called. I think those who agreed were agreeing only on this basis.

Second, I'm glad you agree that people do in general ask "What rank?" The reason they do this, of course, is because they expect a rank (so are listening out for it); i.e. player knowledge that 'blindness' or 'sleep' are often followed by a rank shout is the only real source of the problem. Therefore I think that re-education is indeed the answer.

And yes, people will occasionally shout "What rank?" But I'm not convinced that introducing an 'unlimited ranks' call will reduce this. In fact, it might even increase the frequency. (When there's clearly nothing after the shout, it's pretty obvious there's no rank attached when you're appropriately educated. But in the middle of a fight, you might only hear 'rank', and then have to ask "What rank?", even when it's unlimited...)

Best,

Darrell
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#351
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 14  
Darrell
Your objection appears to be that my argument is unsound, not invalid. (It is enthymematic, of course. But that's normal in everyday language.)
No, I meant invalid, as in void, because it doesn't apply to players as they don't do unranked effects (apart from a few trouble makers like Sarah. )
It counts as unsound as well though if that makes you happier.

But in the middle of a fight, you might only hear 'rank', and then have to ask "What rank?", even when it's unlimited...)
You could equally not hear a call at all or hear "blindness" and think you didn't hear the rank and have to ask what it was. How is that different from what goes on currently?

Saying "Blah unlimited ranks" is within the current call structure, needs no education on players or monsters parts and is clear and concise. I don't see the problem.

But it's not up to me to decide...

Out of interest Sarah, what do you call when you cast unlimited blindness and what has been your experience of monsters reactions?

L8R,
Adam.
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#360
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 12  
Adam: "Saying "Blah unlimited ranks" is within the current call structure, needs no education on players or monsters parts and is clear and concise. I don't see the problem."

Seconded. What's so wrong with trying to make the game as easy to play as possible? I've been coming for 3 years now, admittedly not as often as some, but I still get confused during fights.

It seems to me that the main theme behind this thread is that we want (rightly) to avoid needing to drop out-of-character too often. But what's more OOC than not taking an effect that shouldn't effect you, or reacting in the wrong way to some other thingy. Or having to stop and ask for clarification because, through not keeping yourself warm memorising rules at night, you're not sure if an effect is normally unranked, ranked, or whatever.

Also, I rather get the impression that HQ might be looking to expand somewhat, what with new websites, articles in soft porn mags etc. New players (especially with the abolition of Low Level dungeons) will NOT appreciate the complexity and may well be put off returning. Heavy mental processing while being hit with sticks is not an easy skill to master.

I just don't see the objection to having a "syntax" for ALL effect calls:

"Effect (rank|unranked)"

Should we try to minimise OOC calls? Yes, but not at the expense of confusing people - for me the smooth running of the game should always come first, as there is nothing more likely to pull you OOC than when the actual game itself starts to break down.

Phil.

PS - sorry - it was write either this, or a data sheet on email archiving...
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#361
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 23  
Phil,

I see where you are coming from but the Syntax you propose doesn't tally with some spells at all.

Weakness and Freeze for example are spells that put a negative effect on your character no matter what rank you are. Would you want "Unlimited Ranks" to be added to these as well?

I think what is boils down to is that there is an implied "Unlimited Ranks" on _all_ spells and effects unless otherwise stated. Blindess, Dumbness and Sleep are just the most common effects that are usually modified by a rank component as a result of being player available spells.

A good example supporting this is from the Amythest HQ a few years ago when "Death" (a well known shout that usually just kills you/maims you) was unusually affixed with "64 ranks" meaning that it only killed you if you were below 64 ranks. Hmm did I use this example earlier I can't be bothered to check.

That said I actually have no problem if the convention becomes to say "unlimited ranks" (hell I was proved utterly wrong on the whole "my protections aid me thing" but my concern is that this actually makes the system _less_ consistent rather than more so.

Shaun
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#362
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 14  
One way to look at it is that it's just adding another level on top of the ranked spells for the monsters to yell. It's not a new type of call. It's effectively the same as if you were adding Blindness 512 or 1024 ranks to the existing ones for example.
(bear in mind I don't know what it goes up to normally, I'm guessing for the sake of illustration)
You don't need to add it to any non-rank based effects, just add it on top of the existing ones as above.

I do see that having no rank call attached works as well, I just feel it would be clearer this way.

L8R,
Adam.
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#369
Re:Call Clarification (from the membership letter) 9 Years, 5 Months ago Karma: 7  
philwood wrote:

Also, I rather get the impression that HQ might be looking to expand somewhat, what with new websites, articles in soft porn mags etc. New players (especially with the abolition of Low Level dungeons) will NOT appreciate the complexity and may well be put off returning. Heavy mental processing while being hit with sticks is not an easy skill to master.

I just don't see the objection to having a "syntax" for ALL effect calls:

"Effect (rank|unranked)"

Should we try to minimise OOC calls? Yes, but not at the expense of confusing people - for me the smooth running of the game should always come first, as there is nothing more likely to pull you OOC than when the actual game itself starts to break down.


Hi Phil,

My last post on this one. (I resist the temptation of responding to the accusation of not knowing a valid argument from an invalid one, which would be disastrous in my line of work!)

I don't see the argument that 'Effect unranked' is easier to understand, for new players, than 'Effect'.

Imagine a new player who has 'Sleep' shouted at them (with an appropriate pointing of the finger). Surely if they're reasonably bright, they will realise that their character has been forced to fall asleep.

Now compare 'Sleep unlimited' or 'Sleep unlimited ranks'. How does this make it easier to understand the effect? I contend that it doesn't -- and in fact, it would be likely to lead to confusion (e.g. is the sleep 'unlimited' in so far as it lasts forever?).

In short, the meaning of 'sleep' is fixed -- in so far as it's fixed -- by folk theories which we can reasonably expect new players (who speak English) to understand. The meaning of 'unlimited' or 'unlimited ranks' is specific to the rule system.

(So I would repeat that 'unlimited' or 'unlimited ranks' only removes confusion for those players who already _expect_ an 'x ranks' call after the stated effect.)

Best,

Darrell
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Last Edit: 2009/02/16 20:53 By darrell.
 
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