VKontakte.DJ
forum traveling
Welcome, Guest
Please Login or Register.    Lost Password?
Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking (1 viewing) (1) Guest
Go to bottom Favoured: 0
TOPIC: Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking
#2002
Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 7  
OK. Let's discuss the controversial situation surrounding Nathan's death.

The point behind this isn't to apportion blame; just to talk this through, to help in similar situations in the future.

I hope many people will be reflective enough to take part, rather than dig in and justify what happened come what may. Likewise, I am willing to be persuaded my view on what happened is wrong.

Here's a brief summary of the situation for those not present. (No doubt some bits will be missing, but I and others can expand on those as we go.)

(1) A powerful ancient evil awoke on Orin Rakatha. To leave that evil unchecked would have resulted in the deaths of many, especially in the area surrounding the Vale of Tears in the short term. (The first to have suffered would have been the Kalid, especially the Stone Panthers. It is at best unclear what effect this being would have had on the Valley Alliance and/or when.)

(2) One option to remove this ancient evil was to perform an evil ritual. The evil ritual involved sacrificing a person. It also involved returning much power bound in an item to the Aspect known as Set.

(3) The followers of Set are evildoers, and are enemies of the Valley Alliance. It is also suspected -- but as yet unproven -- that they were somehow behind the Ravanon Cult.

So should the ritual have been performed?

Note that we weren't aware of other options than the evil ritual to deal with the entity on Orin Rakatha, but that it wasn't obvious (a) why time was especially pressing (except to minimise loss of life), and (b) whether there was a way to destroy the entity without performing the ritual. So one option would have been to investigate further... at the cost, admittedly, of some lives.

Thoughts both on moral and pragmatic grounds are welcome. I have tried to be factual here, and not to give my own spin on things. So anyone please feel free to correct me if you think my representation is inaccurate.

Qs
Quicksilver (User)
Scrivener
Posts: 429
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Logged Logged  
 
Last Edit: 2009/05/29 13:58 By darrell.
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2005
Re:Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 14  
It was a very difficult situation as whatever we did lives would be lost one way or another.

From a purely personal point of view I did not want to see the ritual carried out as I lost another friend in a very similar circumstance and I did not wish to repeat the experience.

However, my personal path is that of balance, the middle way. I think it is a most difficult path to walk. Some time ago I talked at length to some of the members of the Ministry of the Heavens from the Celestial Beauracracy and their ethos is that no man can truly walk the middle path and one will have to offset evil with good to achieve balance. I know others will not agree with this but I do. So in this case I think that due to the fact that the great evil would be released before we had time to carry out further investigations that the use of the ritual was justified, despite the great loss incurred and the manner of death which went against my warrior code of Bushido.

I did not envy Shard for being in the position to have to make this decision. For his strength of leadership he has my respect.

Domo arigato gozaimashita Shard-sama.

Toshiro.
Toshiro (User)
Pain is your friend
Moderator
Posts: 686
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Gender: Male Location: Mordhaus
Logged Logged  
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2006
Re:Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 7  
Thank you for contributing your thoughts, Toshiro. I would be very grateful for those of many others before I respond or contribute again.
Quicksilver (User)
Scrivener
Posts: 429
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Logged Logged  
 
Last Edit: 2009/05/29 14:43 By darrell.
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2007
Re:Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 3  
Firstly I would like to clarify some points as I understand them.
-The Manitou, a powerful ancient entity was further granted a large amount of power by Set (details of which can be found elsewhere). The fulcrum of which was the Rod of Egantyr - which served as a conduit.

-Previously the Manitou had been bound by the people of what we now call the Stone Panther Clan into the very land of Orin Rakatha to seal it away.

-It had previously taken the equivelent strength of one Tower to seal the Manitou away - this gives a fair indication of it's power.

-Number 10 of the Dark Seers had released the final bindings of the Manitou in an effort to take control of it's power - this effort subsequently failed.

-The nature of the Manitou as I understand it, is antithical to the very land of Orin Rakatha - which was why it was bound into it as the earthpower opposed it. Orin Rakatha itself is already weakened by the depredations of previous years of strife, the Grove of all Elements is an example of the upwelling effect that the land it attempting to heal itself.
The destruction to the land itself by the Manitou cannot be calculated; but it would if unchecked be serious if not catastrophic.

-We as a group of Valley people were in a position to act. While many might not care for the Stone Panthers I might point out that one of their Shaman stood forth as white knight in the game of Light and Darkness. They would likely have fallen as a people in trying to stop the forces of the Manitou.
Forces I might add that were actually released by a member of our Alliance.

-The ritual was twofold, one of Binding (away from that of Number 10) and one of Breaking.
As we understood it the power that was invested in the Rod did not return to Set or it's Dark Aspect but was dispersed.
It is my supposition (only) that the power that was dispersed was collected by an entity of Agoth and was transformed into another Vere. As Nathan's Spirit was bound up with it I am guessing this accounts for why he cannot be Resurrected at present and his essence must be released from the Vere.


In my belief we performed an Evil ritual and I carry that taint on my Soul. We are the Valley and we do what is necessary; in this case it wasn't just morality that was looked at. It was our responsibility to do something (Number 10), we saved a large number of people - sometimes numbers do matter. I will remind you that we are at war with Agoth and we need as many allies as we can muster in the dark times to come.
The ritual itself while calling on Set did not return any great advantage to Set.

-On balance I would say that the threat to our Towers was very real. Even if not direct immediately.


So if this is to be a moral arguement - who are you Quicksilver, to lead it?
To disagree with a ritual that the group leader has decided on is one thing - I can see that would be a hard path to follow. However to request to secede from the group, to abandon them in the face of adversity to my mind is churlish, childish and deriliction of duty.
Tersius (User)
Notary
Posts: 105
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Logged Logged  
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2009
Re:Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 7  
Tersius wrote:
So if this is to be a moral arguement - who are you Quicksilver, to lead it?

I don't purport to lead it. I am raising the issue so that we can discuss it.

To disagree with a ritual that the group leader has decided on is one thing - I can see that would be a hard path to follow. However to request to secede from the group, to abandon them in the face of adversity to my mind is churlish, childish and deriliction of duty.

The decision to accept the request was made by the leader. If the request had not been granted, obviously I would have stayed.

I think the request was reasonable. (And it was just a request.) You know I am a Priest of the Micheline Sect, and a senior member of the Order of Saint Michel, and yet you expect me to defend a manifestly evil (and plausibly chaos-tainted) ritual, involving human sacrifice, if I can possibly avoid doing so while still obeying orders? Frankly, I'm amazed.

I think you should be more realistic. I do my best to tolerate minor evils committed by other Alliance members, but there is obviously a limit.

(Would you not ask to be released from a party if the leader expected you to guard a necromantic ritual to corrupt a druidic grove? I hope you would. I would too.)

At least one other had earlier been released at their request, i.e. Camelot, so it seems slightly odd to single me out in this way. I also remained nearby -- so the extent to which you were 'abandoned' when you remained in sight is moot -- and rejoined the group after the ritual was complete.

Finally, you use this instance to question my morals, yet fail to mention any of my previous sacrifices for the group and/or the Alliance; or my willingness to adopt a role that no-one else appeared to want in the game (i.e. to face Wraithchild alone). I hardly think this is fair, but you are entitled to your opinion.

If you wish to continue this, in any event, I suggest the conversation be separate from this one -- which primarily concerns the ritual.

Qs
Quicksilver (User)
Scrivener
Posts: 429
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Logged Logged  
 
Last Edit: 2009/05/29 17:42 By darrell.
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2010
Re:Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 7  
Tersius wrote:

-We as a group of Valley people were in a position to act. While many might not care for the Stone Panthers I might point out that one of their Shaman stood forth as white knight in the game of Light and Darkness. They would likely have fallen as a people in trying to stop the forces of the Manitou.


I quite agree that we should, for moral reasons, have done our best to help these people.

I simply wished to point out the information that they would have been on the receiving end because some people appear to value Alliance lives more than the lives of others. (This isn't a view I share; but I just wanted to make it clear.)

Forces I might add that were actually released by a member of our Alliance.

That was the final part of the process, yes, but the other seals were broken in different ways. As I understand it, the creation of the Grove was responsible for some of this.


As we understood it the power that was invested in the Rod did not return to Set or it's Dark Aspect but was dispersed.


I don't believe that's right. As I understood it, Set's plan was to gain power by having the rod broken at the correct time and place, and breaking it earlier prevented this (but returned the power bound into the rod).

We should get confirmation on this. I have asked for it.

Qs
Quicksilver (User)
Scrivener
Posts: 429
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Logged Logged  
 
Last Edit: 2009/05/29 17:51 By darrell.
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2012
Re:Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 3  
To clarify about the Grove of All Elements, it may well have been one of the many events that begun the release of the Manitou. Remember the source of this information is Number 10 who was seeking to manipulate us for his own ends.
However the Grove was a reaction to the strain upon the land - the imprisonment of the Manitou just one of them.
It would have manifested itself regardless of whoever gained control over it as it was an upwelling of Nature.

Camelot I believe was granted leave to take up other duties which as is right and proper he should request leave.
Tersius (User)
Notary
Posts: 105
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Logged Logged  
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2019
Re:Nathan's Death & The Ritual of Breaking 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 11  
I gave my opinion of this at the time, and I don't wish to become involved in a debate. The group did what they did and we are now feeling the consequences.

However, whatever justification people believe they had to perform this ritual, it is my belief that evil should never be fought with evil. Yes the evil way may seem the easy or only way but no good ever comes of good men performing evil deeds.

Verrick
Verrick (Admin)
null
Admin
Posts: 349
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
null null null null null null Location: null
Logged Logged  
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2037
Confirmation of the Ritual of Breaking's Effects 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 7  
Tersius, and other interested parties,

As promised, I have consulted some of my contacts in the Sects of the White Retreat on matters of fact.

I am afraid to say that I was correct. Performing the ritual did empower the Dark Aspect (of which Set is but a part).

The Evil Sphere has been re-aligned in some way, and this has had knock-on effects on the Neutral and Good Spheres.

The use of a 'willing' sacrifice changed the outcome of the ritual somewhat.

The full repercussions have not yet been felt.

--

These are the words of relevant experts, not me.

Needless to say, I agree with Verrick. The easiest and most obvious path is rarely, if ever, the path of Light.

Qs
Quicksilver (User)
Scrivener
Posts: 429
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Logged Logged  
 
Last Edit: 2009/06/01 14:03 By darrell.
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
#2041
Re:Confirmation of the Ritual of Breaking's Effects 8 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 3  
Thank you for your investigations I look forward to the hearing the specifics.

I'd have to say that the fact that the ritual empowered the Dark Aspect isn't a surprise. We performed an Evil ritual dedicated to the Dark Aspect (Set in this case) those of us that took part were aware of this and it's not like we extemporised.

It is natural that the Evil Sphere re-aligned itself. After all that's the whole purpose of a ritual isn't it?
The Spheres aren't some bastions carved from granite; like a willowy tree they ebb and flow to the currents upon them.
It remains to be seen as you say, the magnitude and ancillary effects it will have.

The power of free-will should never be understimated. It has a power of all it's own.
Bear in mind that the Evil Sphere and the Dark Aspect seem to prefer dominion and domination in their dealings.


Quicksilver, Verrick I understand your point about the easiest and obvious route, you are quite correct.
I would not claim to fully know High Priest Farsight; however in travelling alongside a person you can oft get their measure.
It seems to me that the path he chose to walk was far from being the easiest, nor was it the most obvious.
Tersius (User)
Notary
Posts: 105
graphgraph
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Logged Logged  
 
The administrator has disabled public write access.  
Go to top

Have you noticed a problem with this website? If so, please e-mail one of our web team, who will fix it
admin@heroquest-larp.co.uk

© Copyright 2009-2014, All Rights Reserved